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Speculation talk:Emperor
Kieron can't have been the first Dragon emperor. He was dead. Great stuff though. - Attjen I was thinking about this, and we really don't have a clear timetable on this. Kieron presumably went to war under the rule of Zerika I. This war could have taken hundreds of years, and it wasn't until AFTER the war that the Jhereg were made a permanent part of the Empire. Aliera says Kieron was killed "Later" by a group of "Lyorn Warriors and Shaman". Given the way Dragaerans think about time, "Later" could be 600-700 years after the formation of the house of Jhereg... And the fact that The Lyorn played a part in hhis demise makes me think that maybe this was the event that caused the first turn in the cycle from the Dragon to the Lyorn? We have to allow at least 289 years for Zerika I to rule, then at least 289 more for Kieron under this scenario, and probably more since two minimum-duration reigns back-to-back is likely to be pretty uncommon. Am I missing a pertinent piece of evidence from someplace else that makes this theory not work? --Majikjon 20:18, 15 Nov 2005 (UTC) :Hmmmm... good points. However, if the house of the Jhereg was formed, and Kieron allowed them in, I always assumed the cycle and the order of taking the throne was established then. That's what pissed off the others. :I guess I always read it as: Kieron allows in house Jhereg, he's killed, Zerika with Orb later is empress. It doesn't make as much sense if everyone hates house Jhereg bad enough to kill Kieron, but then let them stay in the cycle anyway. And it doesn't make as much sense if they aren't part of the cycle, and then suddenly Kieron is able to add them in. :Room for speculation though, I'll give you that. :Although, Kieron is credited with forming the empire and making the bargain to include the Jhereg (according to Aliera). This doesn't sound quite right to call him emperor. It just doesn't seem to jive, for some reason. How can the empire be formed under Kieron, if Zerika is already on the throne? Attjen ::I guess I read it a little differently. The way I see it, the other houses are likely to see the "order of succession" as somewhat flexible until a given Emperor actually ASSUMES the throne. That is, until the 10th Emperor actually takes the Orb, there's still room to negotiate. It's not until the Lyorn and Shaman finally realize that Kieron will NOT be swayed on this point that they conspire to kill him. (After all, he's kinda the George Washington of the Dragaeran Empire--even considering assassinating him has got to cause a bit of conflicted feelings.) Ironically, it was probably the murder of Kieron that galvanized the other houses against the conspirators over this issue to ASSURE that the Jhereg would have their place in the cycle no matter what. At least, this makes sense to me. (Kinda the same way someone killing JFK galvanized the space race and got us to the moon.) ::Note, I'm not saying Kieron was FIRST emperor, that was Zerika. The cycle then turns to Dragon, so who do you think is going to be emperor, assuming he's still alive? --Majikjon 21:44, 15 Nov 2005 (UTC) :Yeah, I don't know still. I like the theory, but it just doesn't make as much sense to me. Though this line supports you :"He was eventually killed by a group of Lyorn warriors and Shamans who decided that he was responsible for some of the problems the Jheregs brought to the Empire." :That's "brought" to the empire. As in he was forming it, and then it was formed. I'm still not conviced though. I'll have to think it over. - Attjen ::That "Eventually" kinda leaps out at me, too. ;-) But hey, I mean, unless Steve steps in and says "It's this way" it's all going be just a theory. At least not until we DO get that Sethra biography. --Majikjon 22:12, 15 Nov 2005 (UTC) :::Mmmmm.... - Attjen ::::My .02$: I do think the fact that he was killed by a bunch of Lyorns is suggestive given the order of the cycle; if one attempts to come up with good reasons for houses to follow each other (Iorich brings back order after a corrupt Jhereg administration, etc.) Until/unless a book or Brust states otherwise, I'll assume he as the first Dragon emperor and speculate accordingly. As to why nobody calls him "Emperor Kieron", it could just be that they consider "the Conqueror" to be a more impresive 'title' and therefore to be appropriate to use in its place, or it could just be that he's Just That Famous - Zerika the First doesn't seem to get called "Empress Zerika" a lot either (IIRC). - Rook 00:34, 16 Nov 2005 (UTC) :::::Or, perhaps it's just because no Dragonlords have the gall to call themselves "Kieron II". (We did have a "Kieron the Younger", but this was his son, so it's a little different situation. --Majikjon 04:19, 16 Nov 2005 (UTC) ---- Also, a figure as famous as Undauntra would undoubtedly have spawned a Dragon lineage of her own, which we have not seen. Maybe she was a Tsalmoth? --Davdi 04:36, 22 February 2007 (UTC) :I've also given thought to the possibility she was a Lyorn. Really, other than being non-Dragon (and presumably non-Teckla and non-Jhereg) it's impossible to say which house is most likely for her--thus, it's pure speculation. --Majikjon 05:39, 22 February 2007 (UTC) ---- I've sometimes wondered if Vengli the Vicious was either Phoenix (as in really insanely decadent), or perhaps, completely fictional. --Davdi 04:47, 22 February 2007 (UTC) :Vengli as a Jhereg is a pet theory of mine, and falls into an idea for some 4th Cycle fanfic I've been toying with. There's really no way to place him by House or even vaguely in historical context, as his only mention is a totally incidental aside. Decadent Phoenix might work, though the name just doesn't "sound Phoenixy" to me. (Zerika, Zerik, Loudin, Vernoi, Noima, Illista, Allistar, Tortaalik--Vengli? Nah. It's just too guttural, not enough vowels.) --Majikjon 05:39, 22 February 2007 (UTC) ::Re-reading that aside, though, I note that Vengli is mentioned specifically in the context of the sort of behavior that Tortaalik would want to reject. Given that context, I think it makes slightly more sense if Vengli were a Phoenix as well — it gives Tortaalik an example to specifically avoid. If Vengli were not a Phoenix, bringing him up at all makes less sense (why would T worry about acting like a Jhereg, since he's not a Jhereg?). In addition, if Vengli were of another House, I think Paarfi would probably have brought it up. ::Another argument against Vengli being a Jhereg is that the Jhereg nobility isn't particularly "vicious", in general — it's the Organization (or Association) that handles the threats, beatings, murders, and soul-killings, right? ::Anyway, just some arguments to bolster my admittedly vague notion, there. Vowels (or lack thereof) notwithstanding. ::--Davdi 06:58, 22 February 2007 (UTC) :::The context of the aside seems pretty general to me. Vengli was quite obviously a very famous historical example of an emperor acting badly'. When you're talking about an abuse of power, House probably doesn't matter that much. :::In any case, it actually would make more sense for an emperor from a House not known for its viciousness to have an emperor known as "the vicious"... Since those traits would stand in stark contrast to other emperors from the same House. :::Really, I suspect the House of Vengli is indeterminate in Steve's mind, and that he won't ever nail it down unless something "cool" occurs to him. --Majikjon 17:32, 22 February 2007 (UTC)